May 25, 2017, 02:17:16 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Feeling desperate over nightwakings  (Read 7166 times)
guysmom
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 61


« on: June 20, 2012, 07:11:54 AM »

I posted on this earlier but I'm still having major problems so thought I'd try again.  My 6 month old daughter has gotten into the habit of staying awake for HOURS in the middle of the night.  We do not go to her and reinforce this!!  Unless it is a feeding time.  A couple things happen...if she wakes earlier than I was planning to feed her, I do not go in, and lately she is awake for 2-3 hours, crying for a while, then just quiet and wide awake.  Then, let's say she goes back to sleep for a bit.  She'll wake again, and now it's the time (or past it) that I've set for her 1 feeding.  I'll feed her, and whereas for most of the previous part of her life she'd go right back to sleep, now she's UP for another up to 2 hours after the feed, just awake, alone in crib.  This has been happening for a week.  She is taking two 1.25 hr naps per day, which is barely enough to get her by when she has full nights' sleep, much less when she's losing all this night sleep.  She's now sleep-deprived, and that's not helping with the waking problem at night.  It's become a real habit after 7 days of being up many hours each night.  It is my desire to stop feeding her at night altogether and clear up any behavioral confusion around feeding.  To do this, I would like to push her feeding later and later each night til it's in the morning.  This is hard to do with all this confusion...she continues to wake earlier in the night sometimes even when I've ignored her the night(s) before.  So there's lots of time awake, and times when I eventually feed her after she's been awake a long time because she hits my time deadline for a feeding, or because she goes back to sleep but only for a short time and just won't settle back to sleep without the feeding.  She is super healthy and fat, by the way.

Any ideas???  Before you suspect she is going to bed too late, nope.  She has gone to bed at 5-5:30 her whole life after the early weeks.  In fact, sometimes I wonder if the middle of night waking was made easier by her very early bedtime.  Sometimes when she wakes she's had 8 or 9 hours under her belt and has a lot of stamina to stay up.  On the other hand, I keep putting her down early because she's losing so much sleep, her naps are not phenomenally long, and I can tell she needs to be asleep before 6 most days.

I feel like I am out of tools.  I am ignoring her at night, I am putting her to bed super early.  What the heck?!!!  She is losing so much sleep and is very wired.  I thought I knew how to handle these things 3rd time around, but this is totally new.  Pbbblt.

Sleep log:  http://go.trixietracker.com/allaboutowen/sleeps/fullchart
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 07:17:27 AM by guysmom » Logged
Umm.zayaan
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 95


Email
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 09:29:36 PM »

Guysmom - I'm SO SO sorry this is all happening!  I've having such a rough time too.  It ruins everything when your little one isn't getting the sleep s/he needs.  Sad 

The only thing I want to say is I recently tried a 4:40 bedtime... my son has been waking at 5:30 and recently he skipped his morning nap (cried 1.25 hours!) and only took a 30-minute early afternoon nap (then cried a full hour) and since he and I were both exhausted, I put him down at 4:40.  He fell asleep immediately and slept through his normal 5:30 (and then took a 1.5-hour morning nap!)  The "early" bedtimes of 5-5:30 weren't working to repay any sort of sleep deficit because he was waking at 5:30.  I'm telling you this because it's something you can try once or twice, to see if it kicks her into the sleep-begets-sleep mode.  Worth a shot.

Hope things turn around for you.
Logged
Joleen
Regular posters
*
Posts: 11


« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2012, 09:00:20 PM »

Hi Guysmom

Can you tell me what time your daughter is up for the day? What is her mood when she wakes?
What time and length are her naps?
What time is her catnap at and how long after she wakes from the catnap does she go to bed?

Thanks!
Joleen (Student Sleep Consultant)
Logged
guysmom
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 61


« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2012, 02:00:06 AM »

I have been doing 4:45 bedtimes quite a few days too.  I can tell she's less overtired at that time vs. 5 pm.  It doesn't completely solve the nighttime awake sessions...does improve morning nap but her afternoon nap is getting to be 30 minutes which is not ok at all.  Also leads to some very early wake ups which is not helping (and may be why afternoon nap isn't working).  It's ridiculous how much ground we've lost in a few weeks for no good reason.

Joleen, I've never had a baby who wakes the same time every day.  Varies right now 5:30 to 6:20, never get her up til 6:30.  You can click on the link in my original post and see her sleep log.  There is no catnap, even after a short pm nap.  I often try because it would help her so much but she just won't do it.  Hence the super early bedtime and over tiredness :p
Logged
Joleen
Regular posters
*
Posts: 11


« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2012, 05:57:56 AM »

Hi again

You never mentioned what her mood is like when she wakes?

What are her sleepy cues?

If she wakes early (before 6) does the morning nap time change or does it stay the same? (I clicked on the link, but with a toddler running around me, it's easier if I just ask you the questions instead of trying to look at the graph)
Same thing for the afternoon nap-if she naps less than an hour in the morning, do you change the pm nap time or is it fixed?
What happens when she short naps? Ie what do you do? Do you leave her or go in immediately?
How dark is her room?
How long ago did you drop the catnap?
Logged
guysmom
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 61


« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2012, 02:11:50 AM »

Mood when she wakes...naps these days almost always wakes cranky (after months of happy nap wakeups!)  Mornings, can vary.  Most mornings she's been up some or all of the 2-4am window, then wakes again by 5:30-6am.  Even if she wakes happy then, I can't imagine it's because she's really rested.  Yesterday morning she was up ~2:30-4, but then slept 4-7am and did wake happy.  Happy wakes are getting more rare.

I don't go by cues.  Just clock at this point since she's 6.5 months.  But her cues are ear pulling and grumpiness.  If she's so super grumpy I can't stretch to her nap time then I might put her down significantly early.  Otherwise I just vary about 15 minutes from the 9/1 nap schedule.  Bedtime I've been doing 3hrs from when she wakes, which barely gets me to 4:45pm some days. 

If she wakes before 6, I do an 8:45am nap.  If she takes a short morning nap, or wakes before about 10:40am I do a 12:40/45 pm nap.  I always leave her in a short nap at least an hour, crying or no.  Her room is quite dark. 

Catnap...she took 8 catnaps after turning 5 months old, she's taken 3 since she's been 6 months old.  Those have only happened when she's taken a short afternoon nap for the most part.  Now, even when she takes a short pm nap (which unfortunately has been nearly every day the last week...she's so messed up!!) she won't do a catnap.  That sure would help her Tongue  But I've left her for a bout 5 days in a row for ~40 minutes in there screaming every day from 3:30 or so (hoping she'll sleep by 4-4:15pm) and absolutely not happening.  All my kids have been this way.  I think since I've always done such an early bedtime, they drop the catnap very early.  I do think that the original start of all my recent nightwaking problems was coincident with a) solids introduction and b) moving toward a clock schedule 9/1 naps as she stopped ever catching 3rd naps (when it had previously been more like 8:30/12:30/3rd nap).  Routinely staying up 3 hrs at a time is tough on her probably.  But if I did the earlier naps, they weren't working as well and I thought she needed her pm nap toward 1 at that point.  Now, if I were to back up earlier, I think she'd be done napping so early in the day, and still not take a 3rd nap.

Tonight is ANOTHER night of up at 2am, and me not going in to feed her til my deadline of about 3:45am.  This is so devastating.  She is up so many nights like this even though I ignore her for so long.  When I tried last week to stop night feeding altogether, it worked for a few days, but then she just started waking again.  I really think she needs the feeding since her last feed is at 4:30 the night before.  She is hungry when I feed her.  But she's not hungry at 2am when she wakes, just awake and 'content' until she ramps up at the time I feed her.  She has lost so much sleep!  There's no way to catch her up when she does this every night.  The process of trying to stop feeding her keeps her up even more!  And, I can't feed her/put her to bed later when she loses so much sleep every night.  It's such a vicious spiral of sleep loss we are in.  When her naps get short as they now have, all the worse.  I think she wakes at 2am because of the overtiredness from having a 30 or 40 minute afternoon nap.

I am just so sad this is happening to her!!
Logged
Joleen
Regular posters
*
Posts: 11


« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2012, 07:07:35 AM »

Hi again

Hugs to you, you must be exhausted. Sad

How long is her morning nap?
Did you ever get a consistently long pm nap in the past month?

Does she fall asleep immediately at 9 and 1? Are you laying her down at those times or is she asleep at 9 and 1?

There could be a chance that her PM nap has just not developed yet and she may still need 3-4 naps in a day and not 2. She may have not been ready for a 9 and 1 routine yet and has been getting overtired ever since then.

If that's the case, then I would still go by a mixture of cues and set naps. If she can't make it 3 hours, then don't push her yet as it's only going to backfire. An overtired baby is much more likely to take a short nap.
 In the morning, if she wakes significantly earlier than 6, you can watch her cues and put her down between 8:15 and 9 for that morning nap.

2nd nap-again watch her cues and see what she's telling you. If she's starting to zone out, turn away from toys, slowing down, staring off into space, etc then those can be early indications that she's starting to get tired and you can again put her down within a 45 min window-so anywhere between 12:15 and 1pm. You want to aim that she's asleep at that time, not winding down at 12:30/1pm.

If she short naps, then I would try for another 1-2 catnaps throughout the day but try for them about 2 hours after the last nap ( or when her cues are telling you to put her down), especially if she short naps the 12:30 nap.

In regards to the night feeding-what is the last feeding of the night? Do you feed her between bedtime and 3 am?
Is she FF or BF? If formula, how many ounces is she taking at night? If BF, does she take both sides?
How many feeds during the day is she taking?

How do you know that she is awake for so long at night? Do you have a video monitor? Is she crying for 2-3 hours straight?
Does she wake in the early evening at all or is always after midnight?
Logged
guysmom
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 61


« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2012, 07:51:20 AM »

She had been on a beautiful 2 nap schedule, and they were both developing nicely, about 1.25-1.5 hour each.  Not as long as they could have been, but not so bad.  I should mention that this is my 3rd baby, and I've been using a Weissbluth approach with all my kids, so I'm pretty familiar with getting kids to sleep.  Hence, why I am so thrown for a loop by this.

So, your questions.

Morning nap so far is usually 1.25 hours, sometimes even a hair longer.  If it's short, then her afternoon nap will be 1.25 hours.  Yes, I had a consistently long pm nap for a while.  It is feasible that having the 2 naps only over a period of time caused some overtiredness to build up.  However, I couldn't get her to take a 3rd nap.  So I just kept her bedtime about 5 and with two almost 1.5 hr naps that seemed to work for a while.  What else could I do?

I thought that by 6 months, going back to cues rather than a scheduled approach would result in short naps because they weren't at the right times.  I started to notice at one point that if I did a 12:30 nap, it would be short, even though her morning nap was good.  When I pushed it closer to 12:45 or 1, it would be more likely to be longer.  But now she is overtired.  Perhaps going backwards is useful now?

It seems like if she's sleeping til 10:20 or 10:30a for 1st nap, putting her down at 12:45 should not be unreasonable.  She does not act overtired if I do that, but it does take her a while to settle down.  She goes down in about 5 minutes for her morning nap, but by afternoon it might take her 20 minutes.  But she's still usually asleep by 1pm...and then a short nap...lately.

I think the problem is all the sleep loss at night, though.  I can't get her to stop doing this multi-hour waking and she's in bed at night from 5pm to 6:30 or 7am sometimes, but with hours awake in between.  It seems like the sleep is all jumbled up and now there's a pattern of being awake at night, and needing to go to bed hyper early.

My fear about moving naps earlier is that let's say she takes an hour and fifteen minute nap at 8:30, so up at 9:45.  Then, getting to even 12:15 is a stretch, and let's say that's an hour nap til 1:15.  I am almost sure I would not get her to take a 3rd nap.  So then, even 1:15 to 5 is way too long an afternoon.  See what I mean?  That's why I feel forced to stretch her.  But I also see that overtiredness from being up too long is no good.

She's breastfed, with some solid meals now.  Her last feeding is at 4:30pm.  No feedings til 3:30 or later has been my rule.  When she's been waking at 2, she is happy and not hungry in my opinion.  As she's up for close to 2 hours, she does start to fuss and get hungry and then when I feed her she is quite ready for it and goes off back to sleep now.  Earlier I had been doing a single feeding as early as 1am, but she probably didn't need it that early, and then would wake another time toward 4 or 5 am and *really* didn't need another feeding then.  Last week I tried to go cold turkey on the feedings and she slept all the way through for about 3 days, but then the wakings crept back in and I caved, knowing that she's not eating since 4:30 the night before.  I think that's too much to ask to go til 6:30am as a 6-month old if it sticks for 3 nights, but then comes back.  Feeding is at the heart of this problem, but I am at a loss as to what else to do.  I thought sticking with only feeding her toward 4am would cause her to stop waking earlier, but she's still waking at 2 and just waiting for when I'll come in!!

Yes, I have a video monitor but I wouldn't need it to know she's up.  She is not crying most of the time (she is toward the end of when I leave her up), but she is vocalizing and it's very obvious she's awake.  She never wakes earlier than 2am now.  I don't respond to her before 3:45am, ever, but she still does wake at 2 many nights.  If she wakes earlier than that, she goes back to sleep on her own.

Logged
Joleen
Regular posters
*
Posts: 11


« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2012, 09:48:41 AM »

Ok, I see your point,especially since your naps were good lengths. And I understand now why you are trying to push her closer to those 9 and 1 times.

So how long is the pm nap right now and how long has it been at that length?

Have you talked to your pediatrcian about the length of time that she is going inbetween night feeds? If she is consistently waking at 2 am, what happens if you were to go in and feed her right away? It is not unheard of for a 6 month to still take 2 feedings.

I know that it is not what you are wanting to do, but I'm just trying to throw out all options here.

How long have you been doing the early bedtime of 4:30pm now?
Logged
guysmom
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 61


« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2012, 06:06:49 PM »

Darn, I have 'notify' set up when someone writes, but it doesn't seem to be notifying me:p. So the afternoon nap (and all naps) are a bit all over the place right now.  Today was actually 1.25 hrs, yesterday 45 mins, one day as short as 30 mins.  Since this night waking business is keeping her up long times many nights, her morning wake varies a lot.  Nothing is really consistent.  Which breaks my heart because it *had* been.

I hear you about wondering if I should just feed her at 2.  I just have a feeling that I originally ended up in this spot because I was feeding her more than she needed.  I would feed between 12 and 2 and then she'd be up  again 4 or 5 and I'd nurse her again since it would help her get back to sleep.  As long as I was doing that she was waking at odd times like 11p or even 9p now and then and we'd be having to let her cry.  It seems like there always threatened to want to be even more feedings because she was getting fed in response to what was likely not real hunger.  She definitely would not be hungry at 4 or 5 am on that old routine.  That's why I thought keeping it to a 10+ hour interval at her age would ensure that she was somewhat thirsty/hungry and would not wake a second time before morning.  I have a feeling she's not even starving some nights at 3am.  But of course hard to say for sure.  I think we have a case of a habitual pattern of staying up bred from me going to her after having made her wait til my cutoff time.  Now I just can't figure what to do about it...if I cut her off entirely which I already did for less than a week before wakings crept back in...I feel like I'm asking too much of her with a last feeding at 4:30 p.  But as long as I'm feeding at all, they just want to creep earlier and earlier until there are two again and we're back to the wanting-to-be-fed-at-every-waking problem.  Meanwhile all the confusion has created a badly napping and overtired baby which creates more night wakes.  Can't win.  I just hate that the night feeding issue led to this.  Or rather the way I tried to fix it...want my rested baby back.

So after all of tha...last night she did finally wake only once at 3 (I'm under no illusions that will last) but then she was up at 5, having slept from 5 p e night before. 

So here's a big question.  Previous to this when she was doing two 1.25 hr naps per day or sometimes even longer, her last nap was ending at 2 or 2:15 and I was putting her down at 5 or 5:30 and shed be tired that early.  Is there a chance that she was doing these long wakings in the middle of the night (they started after a couple weeks of that great napping pattern) because she was getting to bed TOO early every night?  I know everyone says nightwakings are from over tiredness, but with two good naps and a hyper early bedtime how could that be?  Just curious as I think about how all of this developed.  Maybe it was the night feeding confusion, maybe it was bedtime.  Who knows.  I just know we both need some sleep.
Logged
guysmom
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 61


« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2012, 06:10:03 PM »

Lately if she catches decent naps at all I've actually shied away from the 4:40 bedtime, fearing that I'm enabling these long night wakes.  She still goes to bed at 5 almost every night.  And last week, at 4:45 almost every night.  My friends think I'm insane complIning about her baeing up early or in the middle of the night after putting her to bed at 5pm.  I start to think they have a point...but feel stuck since she's taking two not fantastic naps.
Logged
Joleen
Regular posters
*
Posts: 11


« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2012, 06:36:28 PM »

Can you post your day from yesterday so I can see what it looks like.
I would need something like this
Wake up:
1st nap:
2nd nap:
Bedtime:
Nightwakings:

If you can provide details about her mood too upon wake ups and late afternoon, that would be benifical.

Sometimes babies can wake in the middle of the night due to developmental issues too. I have heard of them being up for 1-2 hours when going through milestones. Has your daughter gone through anything recently? ie sitting up, rolling, etc?

In terms of feeding-I would still try feeding her at that 2 am wake up as it is well within the range of normal for a 6 month old to still want 2 feedings. Usually they are around 1/2 and 4/5am.
Logged
guysmom
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 61


« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2012, 11:23:58 PM »

Yesterday:
Wake up: Unusually early, maybe 5:15
Nap 1: 8:45-9:45
Nap 2: 12:45-2:05
Bedtime: asleep at 5:30 (unusually late)

Day before yesterday:
Wake up: 5:55a
Nap 1: 8:45-10:10
Nap 2: 12:45-1:30
Bedtime: asleep at 5:05

Here's what I was getting at earlier...haven't fed my daughter before 3am in weeks and weeks.  Last night was the first night in a long while that she woke up at 3am and I fed her right away (rather than waking toward 2 quietly and then having to wait to be fed).  Tonight she's up at 12:45!!  Hasn't been up at that time in a loooong time.  Total combo of overtired and waking up for feedings at other times since something unusual happened the night before :p. doesn't se right to go back to a feeding I dropped long ago. So here we both sit awake making the sleep loss worse. But I really don't think increasing the feedings is the right thing at almost 7 months!  Sorry so wordy, just tired and frustrated.  Here's my sleep log: http://go.trixietracker.com/allaboutowen/sleeps/fullchart
Logged
Joleen
Regular posters
*
Posts: 11


« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2012, 05:44:52 AM »

Hi there

Ok, so if you don't want to go back to feeding to see if that helps her to go back to sleep, then you may need to accept that 2 am wake up for awhile. Undecided

You never mentioned if she is going through any developmental leaps? Any teething?

You mentioned that yesterday was the first day in a long time that she woke at 3, fed and went back to sleep. You also posted that she went to bed at 5:30 which was unusually late. Is there a chance those 2 things are related?

If you want a bit of a later bedtime, then I wouldn't start the 2nd nap until 1pm for sure. Hopefully that pm nap will lengthen a bit and you can start to push bedtime a touch later in hopes that it effects the nights.

But if she continues to wake at 2 and waits until 3 when you come in to feed and then goes back to sleep-that's where I would start. It seems to be the one thing that you haven't tried. Her last 'meal' is really early in the evening, so it is not inconceivable to me that her little tummy is empty.
Everything else looks really good.  Smiley
Logged
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC